RogueBasin talk:Community Portal

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: It might be best to have an administrator activate each account before it can be used. This would prevent the spam, and there aren't very many new accounts, so it wouldn't be too tedious. Another option would be to disallow accounts with "buy" in the name. We would need an administrator to do either of these, and it would be useful to have more administrators. [[User:Nate879|Nathan Stoddard]] 21:23, 10 July 2009 (CEST)
 
: It might be best to have an administrator activate each account before it can be used. This would prevent the spam, and there aren't very many new accounts, so it wouldn't be too tedious. Another option would be to disallow accounts with "buy" in the name. We would need an administrator to do either of these, and it would be useful to have more administrators. [[User:Nate879|Nathan Stoddard]] 21:23, 10 July 2009 (CEST)
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:: Right its time someone locked new users down until something can be organised. its beyond ridiculous now. [[User:Stu|Stu]] 18:41, 12 July 2009 (CEST)

Revision as of 17:41, 12 July 2009


Archives

Contents

Game Announcements

If you have a new game/version/release to announce to the world, Make an edit to the News page, and please follow the existing format. If you want to generate discussion and receive feedback and comments, make sure to head over to RogueTemple and use their forums, as well as rgrd. Stu 14:21, 16 May 2008 (CEST)


Link breaks wiki, News at 11

The following link (from 'dead-end pages') fails to display anything other than nasty error messages. Possibly due to illegal characters in title?

http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Hansj%3F%84%E2%80%9A%3F%82%C2%B6rg_Malthener

Other 'bug'ish news. SDL exists, but searching for SDL will return zero hits. PaulBlay

The error with Hansjoergs page are not because of illegal characters in the URL. They should be valid even though they look like at least twice encoded in Unicode. There seems to something terrible broken recently with non 7-bit characters. Database update maybe? Try searching for any special character like e.g. '????' (U+00C4 "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS" if it gets mangled). Even the db search bails with an error. --Bhaak 15:58, 23 March 2009 (CET)

Spambots

There was a small spambot attack recently, dunno how they overrid the spam protection (what is the current spam protection)? I had no luck blocking them via the sysop special pages. Is there any way to delete user accounts?

--Slash 01:08, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

I think it may be useful to update MediaWiki software to the latest version. The one that's currently installed is so old, the mind boggles. The current version has captchas and other stuff, and it's much easier to revert vandalism. Grue 10:23, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

IIRC Bj????rn set up the latest version when the server translation was performed? Also, this is plain vandalism, not even spam (deleting '+' and everything after a '&', what use would that have? --Slash 17:19, 12 Apr 2007 (CEST)

It can't be the latest version. For example when you look at the diff between two revisions, there's no link to edit the revision. This feature was in Wikipedia since I joined it, probably, and that was very long time ago. So, to revert vandalism one has to click three times instead of two, pretty annoying. I don't know, maybe it's configured incorrectly, but it definitely looks very outdated. Grue 10:52, 13 Apr 2007 (CEST)
It's definitely an old version, the Special:Version page shows as using version 1.3.9 (The 1.3.x line was last updated in November 2005). The newest release is 1.10.0 although most modern versions of MediaWiki require PHP5 though (since version 1.7). The latest version that still supports PHP4 is 1.6.10 available here. 1.6.10 was released on 20th February 2007. -- Pucechan 01:18, 28 May 2007 (CEST)
THe Wiki is currently running MediaWiki 1.6.10. Hopefully we won't see any more spam attacks. -- Bjorn 09:50 3 Jul 2007

There was another spammer, although it could be a person doing it, rather than a bot. It was this account doing it, and this was was what he did.

Here we go again, looks like the spambots are returning? Three new pages filled with.. something. Here, here and here, created by three (new?) users in a short succession. Are there any anti-spambot guidelines somewhere, since I'm not sure of what to do, except for reporting? Solarnus 23:48, 8 January 2009 (CET)

Wonder if there is any way we can give rights to some users to approve new users so we dont have these spambots sign up, or we need to modify the captcha code to stop this crap. Stu 14:31, 12 January 2009 (CET)
I would suggest try giving a selected few, trusted users the rights to approve new users. The use of CAPTCHAs is kinda useless as of today (well, except for scaring off scriptkiddies), since it's an out of date "security measure" and there's some various techniques to bypass it. It's also a problem for ie, visual impaired people having trouble reading the characters (more info over at wikipedia, for those of you not being convinced it's a crappy technology..). Solarnus 15:50, 23 January 2009 (CET)



All those guides!

Where did all those good guides at http://www.roguelikedevelopment.org/ go? according to the news, the content has been moved to this wiki but I can't find any of those guides! me want's 'em badly! Solarnus 11:28, 16 January 2008 (CET)

Sorry, I meant of course that alot of guides are missing, as least most of the map algorithm stuff previously found on the old site is missing here at the wiki. Anyone got copies of those guides, please? Solarnus 14:28, 23 January 2008 (CET)
And you looked in the map section of Articles? All the ones I recall are there. Perhaps you can use the wayback machine to calculate which ones seem to be missing? Duerig 17:12, 23 January 2008 (CET)
lol, the wayback what..? No, realy, I know there's alot missing from the site. Some examples are the guides written by Mike Anderson (Dungeon-Building Algorithm, Fractal Landscapes) and Radomir "The Sheep" Dopieralski (Recursive LvL Generation) Solarnus 17:52, 23 January 2008 (CET)
Look at this URL. It is from www.archive.org, the wayback machine for the Internet: http://web.archive.org/web/20060114055601/http://roguelikedevelopment.org/ but before you go adding all of the articles to the wiki, you should know that there was some effort to move them over, but only if the original authors could be found to give permission. So you should check with an admin here about what to do. Duerig 08:50, 24 January 2008 (CET)
Oh crap, I thought I could just go and add what I managed to find, since it had already been released on the site o.0' Pardon me, I'm too quick sometimes, doing stuff without thinking first.
But, IMHO, not moving over all that stuff just because the original author couldn't be found kinda buggers me, that's just wast of time and good knowledge, stupidlly forcing to "reinvent the wheel". And it buggers me even more, since obvisiouly (spelling?) it can still be found on the web thanks to that wayback machine you're talking about (thanks for that link btw, would've never thought of that).
Thanks for telling me dude, I'll try slowing down/backing off and poke an admin about it before doing anything else.

Anyway, should the "previously missing" Dungeon-Building Algorithm article I dug up yesterday be removed, or just leave it for now and hope for the better? Solarnus 13:50, 24 January 2008 (CET)


Is there any chance of the articles being reposted on the original site until they can be ported here? They're only text documents, and a number of them were very good references. Most of the original files are not stored on wayback machine, so forn ow they are lost for good. lapoubelle 30 April 2008

I have spent most of today searching for and collecting all of the articles that were on the old system but not on roguebasin. I was able to recover all but two. Those two and links to the archives are at User:Duerig. That way they should be safe until we can decide how to handle them. If the admins have a problem with this, I'll host them on my own domain if I have to. Let me know if you can find information on either of the two remaining articles. Duerig 21:53, 1 May 2008 (CEST)



Game or project?

Template Template:Angband-variant asks for status field. Then game entry is added to "status games" category. This works well for stable games and defunct games but fails for alpha, beta and talkie talkie *projects*. Thus any Angband variants which classify themselves as having alpha or beta status do not get included in proper category. Any ideas how to correct that without destroying too much existing work? I would opt for removing status field and adding all variants to categories manually. Other choice is to spilt template into several like it was done with Template:Gameinfo. What are others opinions on this? –Michal BielinskiTalk 16:18, 19 August 2008 (CEST)

I think the best bet is to split the template like the Gameinfo did. I presume there was a good reason to do that split rather than use the status field cleverly. I don't like people having to manually add the category tag as that will result in people forgetting to categorize the variant at all. --JeffLait 05:21, 21 August 2008 (CEST)
Foundations are lain. I am going to wait some more time before proceeding to change all Angband variant pages in case better ideas show up or someone has objections. –Michal BielinskiTalk 15:03, 25 August 2008 (CEST)

1krl

We should add this to the wiki, but I'm not sure where. http://1024brl.googlepages.com/ (and a link to the rgrd posts of course. --Soyweiser 02:00, 22 August 2008 (CEST)

Rule of thumb for new -> old news?

How many months (or how many posts) should be in News before you should move some to Old News? I would suggest that four months or so is enough as the 'News' section is currently longer than the rest of the Main page. PaulBlay

I think that we should move all news from 2008 to Old News. We actually don't really need the News page to show news older than a month, as it is intended to show new releases. I will move all news from 2008 now. Nathan Stoddard 22:34, 22 March 2009 (CET)

More bug-ish behaviour - support for unicode/multi-byte characters

I've just noticed that Japanese text typed in my user page spontaneously changed into gibberish (technically 'mojibake' ;-). The interesting point is that initially it displayed properly, only after a day or two did it turn into unintelligible characters. Similar behaviour can be seen at POWDER/Russian translation. For test purposes I will now write something in Japanese. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? PaulBlay

My bet is someone used a browser that didnt handle jis/utf or whatever encoding properly and saved it back... your test string is nothing but ?????? to my browser... (ff3.5) Stu 19:59, 10 July 2009 (CEST)

talkie = pre-alpha / planning ?

The 'talkie' category appears to be a little off compared to the line-up of "alpha, beta, stable". Should I understand it to include games that are pre-alpha / planning or should "pre-alpha" be a new category?

A significant number of 'alpha' projects include no download. I was under the impression that 'alpha' meant that you could run it and see something even though it might not be a playable game yet. PaulBlay

Yes, I think that games that are in 'alpha' but have no downloads should be moved to 'talkie'. Nathan Stoddard 23:23, 12 April 2009 (CEST)

Image uploads?

I see that file uploads are disabled. I'd like to be able to upload a few small icons for alpha/beta/stable/defunct (after I find/create them ;-). If I can't do it myself, is there an admin who I could email or something? PaulBlay

It's not possible to upload files, but you can use images from other sites. Put the image's URL on the page, without any special formatting (look at Downfall for an example). If you need a site to upload to, I recommend Imgur. Nathan Stoddard 23:26, 12 April 2009 (CEST)

RGRD Wiki Project

I see this hasn't had any new names added since August 2008. As such perhaps it shouldn't be so prominent in the Contribute section. Maybe ...


=Contribute= If you'd like to contribute to RogueBasin, simply create an account and log in. Feel very free to edit! We especially need more information added to the games pages and the lists - if you're a developer, consider updating your game's page, and making sure that it (and you) are included in the relevant lists.

If you're an experienced developer, consider writing articles about creating Roguelikes. There are many people new to Roguelike development, and they often need help. It's especially helpful to write articles about problems you have experienced yourself. Also you can add your name to the RGRD Wiki Project (directly, or by posting a message on rgrd saying how you want to participate). If someone sees a relevant post by you, they'll upload it to this wiki as an article.

PaulBlay

I think this will be fine. You can go ahead and change it if you want. Nathan Stoddard 23:27, 12 April 2009 (CEST)

New main page

I like the appearance of the new main page :) --Slash 05:32, 13 April 2009 (CEST)

I like it too, nice work! I'd like the contribute part to be blue though, User:Colonp/maintest.. Not perfect right now. Colonp 04:17, 17 April 2009 (CEST)

STATUS in game templates

A number of games have |status= lines in the info box, but it does not display anything on the screen. The content is generally a duplicate of the type indicated by the template name (e.g. game-beta is status Beta, etc.)

Are these lines left over from an earlier set of templates? Can the STATUS information safely be called redundant and removed? PaulBlay

'roguelikes' section of Main page.

I think that influential would be clearer (and less controversial) than popular. There are arguably many recent roguelike games that are more popular than ToME, but few (if any) that have been more influential.

I suggest that Major Roguelikes, Roguelike Reviews, Tree of roguelike evolution, and Recently Updated Roguelikes be added to the 'inclusion' page Lists of Roguelikes, and the text changed as below:

= Roguelikes = Many Roguelikes are freely available online. The most popular influential are:

ADOM · Angband · Crawl · NetHack · ToME

Since the control systems of these Roguelikes are geared towards "expert" players, the novice player may be interested in trying a 'lighter' game like some of the coffeebreak roguelikes or just dive in at the deep end and find a game to suit you.. The following may help you find out more:

Also ...

See Talk:List of roguelikes for possible replacement for the content of that page. PaulBlay

Featured game section?

How about a 'featured game' section (bottom left of main page). Suggested content: Short description, mini-review, link to RogueBasin page and main review (if present). I'd suggest choosing games that have been updated in the last month and are at least 'beta'. PaulBlay

Well, I've done one. Maybe someone will replace it with a different game in a week or two. PaulBlay
Looks great! I actually have a C64 in a joystick system that has this game on it. elig

Location instead of Nationality?

In the developer info, I think it would be more fun to have a Location option instead of a Nationality option. With location, people can put in however much information on their location they want. They could type things like "Sacramento, CA, USA" or just "Arizona, USA" or even "France". The Nationality field limits this information purely to the country where the person is from, which in many cases might not be as interesting as the state in that country that the person lives in.

So, the advantage with using the word Location instead is that it provides people the flexibility to put in however much or little information they want, and it can still contain the exact same information that Nationality does. Also, upgrading is easy because we can just replace all instances of Nationality with Location. Although this might be considered a minor issue because people can enter their state and so on into the Nationality field, the Nationality field still encourages new contributions to contain as little information as possible on the location of the developer. Renaming it Location would encourage them to put in as much information as they wanted to. - elig

I'm not hard against it, but it doesn't sound that great a move. I doubt the excitement would keep you awake at nights if I told you that I live in Wiltshire now but Berkshire before I moved. ;-) States are mostly only going to be interesting if you happen to live in the same country. That said, go ahead and do it if you want, it's no big deal either way. PaulBlay
The biggest problem with this is that every developer would have to change their developer info. It would be better to create a new template with the nationality changed to location, but then some developers would have a "location" field and others would have a "nationality" field, which could be confusing. I don't think it's worth it to change it. Nathan Stoddard 00:38, 8 May 2009 (CEST)

Important links on front page?

What about having some closely related important community links on the front page? There are very few major resources aside from Roguebasin, pretty much just Temple of the Roguelike, the rgrd newsgroup, #rgrd and Temple of the Roguelike's forums. The RGRD links are currently under articles, perhaps for lack of a better place. They're not articles and it seems a little confusing to me to have them under there. Links might be appropriate, but since there are so few other major resources for the roguelike community, why not highlight them directly on the main page? I feel this would really help people who find Roguebasin for the first time to enter the community. At least, I think all these links should be placed in a single location that is easy to access and properly labeled. Thoughts? - elig

I have now added this to the front page, to show how I think it might look. Feel free to take it off ofcourse if you absolutely hate it, but I think it could be a valuable addition to the front page. Thoughts? - elig

A few PaulBlay

  1. Although I like "Temple of the Roguelike" it doesn't really need two links.
  1. r.g.r.d Newsgroup and R.G.R.D IRC Chatroom could have direct links as well as (instead of?) the links to RogueBasin pages.*
  1. angband.oook.cz deserves a mention.
  1. You've just stolen the space I wanted to use for the "Featured game section" ;-) (But I can't complain too much as I didn't take the time away from Angband/65 development to feature even one game)

NOTE: r.g.r.d Newsgroup should probably have a Google groups link - many people won't have a browser that supports things like news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.pocketpc. If there was a browser equivalent for IRC:// I'd probably say the same about that.

Also note that there's a "links" link at the top of the page. I'd suggest that page could be made more user-friendly and updated.


Featured games is a good idea. We can always put it above or below the community links. But it should definitely have a featured games thing on the front page. The other changes are all good, I'll probably just leave the Temple of the Roguelike forum, since this page already has news physically on it. The r.g.r.d. newsgroup should be a direct google link IMO as well. IRC I think it would be better to have a seperate page for, just because there's no easy way to specify an IRC server's address, to my knowledge. I'll also add angband.oook.cz - elig

I've also added a temporary space for the future featured Roguelike section. Feel free to remove/edit it of course. Just figured I'd reserve the space :) Also, feel free to put it above the Roguelike community links if you want. Also, what about having the featured roguelike at the very top of the page? Like, in the space where "What is a Roguelike?" is now, with "What is a Roguelike?" right below it? It might be something neat to entice any new visitors to try a Roguelike. - elig

Specific games..

"I don't think we should have links to sites about specific games"

http://angband.oook.cz/ is not about a single game, it is about an entire genre of roguelike games. As evidenced by the fact that there are 82 *band variants in the List of Angband variants. There are at least as many posts on variants as on 'vanilla' Angband and frankly it gets more traffic than http://www.roguetemple.com/ by a long way. PaulBlay

Okay. From the description of the site, I assumed it was primarily about Angband. I didn't even look at the site. I will re-add it. :) Nathan Stoddard 21:50, 14 May 2009 (CEST)

Reorganize site?

Right now, this site serves two main purposes: to describe existing Roguelike games and have articles about creating new Roguelikes. I think that at least for the average user, it might be confusing to have the two "mixed" like they are. For example, I think the news section of the main page should be divided into two sections: games and development tools. What do you think? Nathan Stoddard 21:54, 14 May 2009 (CEST)

I don't think the development tools should be split out of news, but I do agree that something of a reorganisation is needed. The site is, IMO, more accessible for game information than it is for development help. The great majority of game information is in one of two types - 1) Lists and categories, 2) Individual game information. That is basically all that's needed - ways of finding a suitable game efficiently and information on the game itself.
Development articles (and related content) are trickier. For one thing I suspect many of the articles may be old fashioned. There are also quite a few articles that are 'locked' (can't be edited). They are spread around between different languages and I think there are big gaps in difficulty level between them. What I think would be great would be if there was a series of articles all in the same language (preferably one accessible to new learners and usable on many platforms) that cover all major aspects of development. Don't worry about having the most efficient algorithms, worry more about understandability and consistency between articles. Make use of stable libraries if appropriate. Basically with the intent that someone starting at the first article and finishing at the last could go from newbie to having made a basic functional roguelike game. That series could form a stable "trunk" and generous inclusion of links to other relevant articles would provide branches off to the details and options that more experienced developers (and those using other languages) will need. PaulBlay
I think that's a good idea. It might be best to use Python, because it is easy to learn, fast to develop in, and portable. It's slow (some say it's 100 times slower than C++), but as you said, efficiency isn't very important. I have some experience with Python, so I could help write some of the articles. Nathan Stoddard 01:42, 15 May 2009 (CEST)
As I understand it the latest version has improved quite markedly in speed, hasn't it?
I'm pretty much booked up working on Angband/65 as far as my free time goes up till the end of August so I'm afraid I won't be of much use (and I don't know python). PaulBlay
Definitely, the game info is far more accessable than the development info. What we're desperately lacking is more information on development, a better organization of that information, and a better way to access that information. I'm not entirely sure how to fix these problems, except for maybe creating a generic Roguelike Development page that is linked to from the front page. Aside from that, I'm not sure. :\ I've thought about adding articles from time to time, but I never know what to name them or where to properly add them. - elig

Library template(s)

I've added Template:Library and applied it to the pages in category:library. While doing so two points came up to be resolved:

1. Should there be -alpha, -beta, -stable and -defunct divisions for libraries?

2. Should Roguelike Library For Java and Roguelike Library For Perl be changed to use the library template I added?

P.S. Feel free to change / or comment on the library template I made. PaulBlay

IMO all libraries should follow the same format, and I love the alpha beta stable etc. thing. Sounds good to me! - elig
I also like that curses uses a library like template to specify that curses is a series of libraries. elig

Who's minding the store?

That is to say, who is it that does the admin stuff like delete pages in the delete category, pay for the domain name, update the mediawiki version? I'm just asking because it would be a real shame if I came back here one day and it was all 404'ed or something. PaulBlay

Not sure, might be slashie. I was thinking of just such an awful idea myself recently. Maybe we should start some kind of fund to financially support roguebasin. Erowid for instance has a non-profit donation based organization that pays their bills. Of course, we wouldn't be able to do anything nearly so fancy, but a paypal account and the ability to donate might be nice... Thoughts? - elig

I just now noticed the PayPal donate button on the lower left side of the page. Is that new? I definitely think it should be given a more prominent place on the website if it is! Maybe a nice spot on the front page, and one on the left right under the logo, maybe. Glad to see this place has a donate button now, though! Everybody donate! :D elig
That's been there forever. Before everybody donates I think someone should email the address shown and see if you get a reply. (I don't think Bjorn has edited anything here all the time I've been here?). PaulBlay
This is being discussed at http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=413 , thanks for your interest! --Slash 07:18, 2 July 2009 (CEST)

Wiki backup / duplicate?

With the current situation (not sure who runs RogueBasin, not sure who has the admin account for the wiki, out of date mediawiki version) would it be possible for someone to duplicate / backup the wiki content? Worst case it wouldn't all be lost if it goes south. Best case someone might be willing to set up a new host with better spam-protection and less bugs. PaulBlay

I agree, it would be a great benefit to the entire community if we were able to duplicate/mirror this wiki. If anyone could duplicate it, we could set up some mirrors in case the main site ever goes down. Plus, this has the added advantage of independent members of the community being able to download a backup copy. We definitely need an easy way to mirror/download/backup Roguebasin, IMO. elig
There's a special page for Exporting pages for import to another MediaWiki wiki. Special:Export. Not sure how well it works. Or you can just manually copy each page source. Possibly to a wiki host like PBWorks ??? PaulBlay
I have written/grabbed a few scripts to begin automating the backup process and I've also used them to make a complete backup of the roguebasin wiki. Both the scripts and the initial backup are available in a package at: EDIT: Download scripts at http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/roguebasin-backup-scripts.zip and backup at: http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/roguebasin/backups/ /EDIT so grab a copy and keep it just in case. If somebody feels ambitious, they can finish automating the process. Duerig 07:05, 2 July 2009 (CEST)
This is awesome, Duerig! This is exactly what we needed! :D Thank you. I'm going to download it right away. elig Edit: After having downloaded it, this really is EXACTLY what we need. This is fantastic. Everyone should download this. elig
Ha-ha, maybe not *everyone* (surely there are bandwidth concerns?). But great news and thanks Duerig. I have just downloaded it and will experiment with how easy it is to set-up elsewhere. (It's not a backup until you've tested the restore process! ;-) I'll report in the Temple of the Roguelike thread. PaulBlay
Given your enthusiasm, I decided to bite the bullet and finish automating the process. Download the scripts and run 'backup.sh' and everything will be done for you including downloading the actual xml files and compressing them into a tarball with the current date. I converted a piece of my webspace into backup storage and I've set up a cron job to make monthly backups and stash them there. Fully automated backup scripts at: http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/roguebasin-backup-scripts.zip and backup index at: http://www.xmission.com/~tyrecius/roguebasin/backups/ I plan to leave things running and available until/unless my provider complains. Duerig 09:32, 2 July 2009 (CEST)
Scautura has made the very generous offer to supply ad-free wiki hosting. Depending on whether we get any replies from Bjorn (and what those replies are) I think it might be a good idea to move RogueBasin. Obviously it will still be a good idea to make regular backups whatever else happens. Otherwise YourWiki looks like a possibility for temporary / emergency backup location. I'll be waiting a while to see how things proceed before doing more. PaulBlay
Duerig comes through once again! This is absolutely amazing stuff, and exactly what we need. Thank you! Now I can start a torrent based on the backups/ directory. This is awesome! :D elig

Weird error?

Every time I search for Bjorn or Bergstrom the search crashes. I was trying to figure out when the new paypal button was added by searching for Bjorn Bergstrom and then seeing when he added it. Unfortunately, it crashes. Any idea why? elig

I've seen this before. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact reason for the problem (or where I wrote about it) but I think it's got something to do with the content of the pages searched for (possibly related to the way non-ascii characters get messed up). PaulBlay

The Roguebasin torrent!

Here is a torrent for the most recent backup of the Roguebasin. I'll be seeding it at 50kb/s pretty much forever. Remember, seeding this is completely legal and supports the preservation of the Roguebasin, so please seed! Get the torrent here!

You can also save the copy on Adrive or Skydrive --Pilotpirx 11:36, 8 July 2009 (CEST)

New spamers

Think its time to update the wiki again? or do something with captha or something to lock new users... the spam is coming thick and fast Stu 17:39, 10 July 2009 (CEST)

It might be best to have an administrator activate each account before it can be used. This would prevent the spam, and there aren't very many new accounts, so it wouldn't be too tedious. Another option would be to disallow accounts with "buy" in the name. We would need an administrator to do either of these, and it would be useful to have more administrators. Nathan Stoddard 21:23, 10 July 2009 (CEST)
Right its time someone locked new users down until something can be organised. its beyond ridiculous now. Stu 18:41, 12 July 2009 (CEST)
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